Saddam Hussein captured

Originally posted by Bucky@Dec 14 2003, 01:45 PM
Bush wasn't the one that claimed Iraq had WMD, it was the UN. Read the UN resolutions that were in place a decade before Bush took office.

If i didn't know any better i'd think you were a politician. Yes, the UN did indeed suspect Iraq to be in possession of WMDs, but they never actually aquired any evidence to support this, and thus refrained from invading. Innocent until proven guilty and all that i guess. Someone else however, didn't let that little issue stop him. And now for a few words from the Great Leader himself......

"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
George W. Bush, Speech to UN General Assembly 9/12/2002

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."
George W. Bush, Radio Address 10/5/2002

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."
George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas."
George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

"If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do --............"
George W. Bush, Cincinnati, Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

I could keep on quoting him ad infinitum, but i think i have enough to make my case. Bush was assuming that Iraq had WMDs, and he deceived the american public(and tried to deceive the world) into believing he had the capability to deploy WMDs. No chemical or biological weapons were launched during the war and none have been found so far, which seems strange given how confident he sounds in those quotes. Capturing Saddam is indeed good news to the Iraqi people, but the US' primary reason for invading was to stop him from producing and using WMDs. Now that they have Saddam, maybe they can extract where he hid these weapons(assuming he had any), but even if they do, it doesn't change the fact that Bush and co didn't KNOW for sure. You don't send soldiers off to war on a guess or assumption. Ever. :nxs:

Link

Bold added by me for emphasis.

FROM ASSOCIATED PRESS

The text of UN Security Council resolution 1441 on Iraq that was unanimously approved Friday, Nov. 8:
Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its president,

Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized member states to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,

Further recalling that its resolution 687 (1991) imposed obligations on Iraq as a necessary step for achievement of its stated objective of restoring international peace and security in the area,

Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programs to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programs, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to co-operate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all co-operation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the council's repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or co-operate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,

Determined to ensure full and immediate compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions and recalling that the resolutions of the council constitute the governing standard of Iraqi compliance,

Recalling that the effective operation of UNMOVIC, as the successor organization to the Special Commission, and the IAEA, is essential for the implementation of resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions,

Noting the letter dated 16 September 2002 from the minister for foreign affairs of Iraq addressed to the secretary-general is a necessary first step toward rectifying Iraq's continued failure to comply with relevant council resolutions,

Noting further the letter dated 8 October 2002 from the executive chairman of UNMOVIC and the director general of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the government of Iraq laying out the practical arrangements, as a follow-up to their meeting in Vienna, that are prerequisites for the resumption of inspections in Iraq by UNMOVIC and the IAEA, and expressing the gravest concern at the continued failure by the government of Iraq to provide confirmation of the arrangements as laid out in that letter,

Reaffirming the commitment of all member states to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring states,

Commending the secretary general and the members of the League of Arab States and its secretary general for their efforts in this regard,

Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions,

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq's failure to co-operate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the council;

3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programs to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programs, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;

4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and co-operate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the council for assessment in accordance with paragraph 11 and 12 below;

5. Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC's or the IAEA's choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the council 60 days thereafter;

6. Endorses the 8 October 2002 letter from the executive chairman of UNMOVIC and the director general of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the government of Iraq, which is annexed hereto, and decides that the contents of the letter shall be binding upon Iraq;

7. Decides further that, in view of the prolonged interruption by Iraq of the presence of UNMOVIC and the IAEA and in order for them to accomplish the tasks set forth in this resolution and all previous relevant resolutions and notwithstanding prior understandings, the council hereby establishes the following revised or additional authorities, which shall be binding upon Iraq, to facilitate their work in Iraq:

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall determine the composition of their inspection teams and ensure that these teams are composed of the most qualified and experienced experts available;

- All UNMOVIC and IAEA personnel shall enjoy the privileges and immunities provided in the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations and the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the IAEA;

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have unrestricted rights of entry into and out of Iraq, the right to free, unrestricted, and immediate movement to and from inspection sites, and the right to inspect any sites and buildings, including immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to presidential sites equal to that at other sites, notwithstanding the provisions of resolution 1154 (1998);

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq's chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programs and the associated research, development, and production facilities;

- Security of UNMOVIC and IAEA facilities shall be ensured by sufficient UN. security guards:

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to declare for the purposes of freezing a site to be inspected, exclusion zones, including surrounding areas and transit corridors, in which Iraq will suspend ground and aerial movement so that nothing is changed in or taken out of a site being inspected;

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed and rotary winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles:

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove, destroy, or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof; and

- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to free import and use of equipment or materials for inspections and to seize and export any equipment, materials, or documents taken during inspections, without search of UNMOVIC or IAEA personnel or official or personal baggage;

8. Decides further that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or of any member state taking action to uphold any council resolution;

9. Requests the secretary general immediately to notify Iraq of this resolution, which is binding on Iraq; demands that Iraq confirm within seven days of that notification its intention to comply fully with this resolution; and demands further that Iraq co-operate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

10. Requests all member states to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programs or other aspects of their mandates; including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

11. Directs the executive chairman of UNMOVIC and the director general of the IAEA to report immediately to the council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.

If you actually take the time to read that, you will note the language used. There is no reference to suspected weapons. If Bush was acting on "imagined" weapons, than the unaminous membership of the UN was under the same illusion. Pinning this on Bush is lunacy.

Bucky, with all due respect, I find other Americans on this forums more open-minded when it comes to issues that concern the USA. I think you've been an American for far too long and what's more - during the Cold War, when propaganda was at its peak. I admire your propaganda experts though, cause you are a smart man and getting a smart man to lose any doubt on whether what his govenrment does is right or wrong is one hell of a job to do.

I'm being really serious and in total awareness that you might hate me for it. But step aside from your American pride and say, how would you feel if another country invaded the USA with no sensible reason whatsoever.

Originally posted by Bucky@Dec 14 2003, 08:19 PM
If you actually take the time to read that, you will note the language used. There is no reference to suspected weapons. If Bush was acting on "imagined" weapons, than the unaminous membership of the UN was under the same illusion. Pinning this on Bush is lunacy.

I hate resorting to semantics, but i'm out of options at this point. The declaration refers to programs, which means Iraq may want to produce or procure WMDs, but there is no evidence to support that they actually possess WMDs. Possession is 9/10 of the law. That's the key distinction between Bush and the UN. Bush implies that Iraq was in possession of WMDs at that very moment and was in the process of producing more. If that had been true, then the UN, France and Germany would only have been too happy to contribute to the war. But they didn't. I wonder why......

Originally posted by Sarafan Lord@Dec 14 2003, 09:41 PM
then the UN, France and Germany would only have been too happy to contribute to the war. But they didn't. I wonder why......

A good portion of the UN member nations supported the war, and several involved troops in the process.

Why didn't France, Germany and Russia want it? Simple really. They had serious financial interests in Sadam staying in power.

It's always about money, ain't it.

[edit]
Beside, we are kind of forgetting about this whole fact, aren't we?

Link

1992

May: Iraq admits to having had a "defensive" biological weapons program.

Originally posted by Greywolf@Dec 14 2003, 09:38 PM
Bucky, with all due respect, I find other Americans on this forums more open-minded when it comes to issues that concern the USA. I think you've been an American for far too long and what's more - during the Cold War, when propaganda was at its peak. I admire your propaganda experts though, cause you are a smart man and getting a smart man to lose any doubt on whether what his govenrment does is right or wrong is one hell of a job to do.

I'm being really serious and in total awareness that you might hate me for it. But step aside from your American pride and say, how would you feel if another country invaded the USA with no sensible reason whatsoever.

You know nothing about me, or my views on my country.

I love my country and I detest my government.

While you all seem to view me as some kind of fanatic on this issue, you are just as fanatical on the other extreme. You ignore or twist facts and quotes that run counter to your argument.

In your eyes, if I disagree with you, it's not because I am capable of viewing the facts and forming my own judgements, it's because I'm brainwashed by my government's propaganda. So you are more open-minded then me?

All of the arguments expressed here as to why the Coalition shouldn't have gone into Iraq are spookily reminiscent to the reasons why the League of Nations didn't intervene when Hitler was building up his war machine prior to WW2.

Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it.

Originally posted by Sarafan Lord+Dec 15 2003, 01:41 AM-->

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:08 AM.

Design by vBmode.com. Powered by vBulletin Copyright 2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd

vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007 - 2008, PixelFX Studios

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77