What a joke these Violent Muslems are !!

I sit back and watch all these riots going on in many of the arab or muslim countries against the west or western ideas. Even some in the western countries. (Not only the cartoon thing ) copies of the Muslim holy book were found lying in a drain in the Bhatta chowk area. abu ghraib beatings etc...
There response:
Pictures of bush as a dog, anti israel signs ,(holocaust is a lie etc) europe or scandinavian death threat,s suicide bombings, burning down of kfc buildings or anything related to the us. burning flags. Burning of cars in france . 9/11, bombs in spain , england australia or many other countries. ETC ETC ETC

The interesting thing is when i see a big natural disaster happen to them or anyone eg:
Tsunami eartquake & flooding .
Most big earthquake disasters or floods famine, in Iran, Pakiskan, india Turkey many other placers

Whos there first to HELP THEM, to give them AID, Food, SHELTER, Medical supplies ,People, Money
You know its the YANKS ENGLAND AUSTRAILIA First then new zealand some euro countries japan and other asian ones etc. and a few others
How many Arab countries do you hear or that are there first .....F*** all.
Yet when those countries make a mistake, its Death to the the WEST.

If they hate the west so much and there western ideas
STOP USING ALL THERE DAM STUFF!
Computers, cars, phones medical tech, and on and on
NO cause they are a bunch of hypocrites COKE is evil but please save my children from cancer, please feed me , please help rebuild my cities, etc
Wake up you Bastards Stop the brain washing. look with your own eyes before you judge someone. one western man doesnt speak for all western people.
Heres apoint. Maybe one of those people blown up might of been the one that could of saved you kid from under a earthquake building or dying of a disease or drowning. did u think about that?
Why dont you good muslims help to stop those things?

My hat comes off to the USA and others for still helping out muslims, no matter what they do to you.
What goes around will catch up and come around.

THE END

You make a very good point and I agree, however, no matter what, there will always be someone or a group of people that will bitch just because they can. Some people in teh world have no sense of humor or a willingness to try and see another persons point of view.

At least we have the smarts to vent our frustration here instead of bombing, killing, protesting games, and otherwise being a jackass

Hi,

I think we should be careful how we react to such things. There is no doubt that there are some Muslims that have, shall we say "interesting views" on the world, but as you yourself have said, we shouldn't judge every Muslim according to the acts and behaviour of some.

Take for instance the current stupidity of the cartoon controversy. No doubt that the images were offensive, and Muslims had very right to protest. And the fact is that over 99% of the protests demonstrations were entirely peaceful and constructive. But this is not what it seems when we watch the news or read the papers. Every time the news channels showed the demonstrations, it would be accompanied by clips and videos of flag burning, and violent scenes and offensive banners, and their like. Which is wholly irresponsible as less the 0.01% of the people involved in such demonstrations were actually involved in such things. But the damage was done by the media, whether intentionally or not, giving the impression that what they were showing represented what really went on. Many people started to then wonder why it was that a religion that preaches peace could end up being so violent. The media representation was the real reason behind this, not the actual truth.

Similarly, what we get to read and see in the news about the muslims, Islam, and the so-called war or terror, is just a very brief, and often skewed glimpse of what is really happening in the world. Like it or not, unfortunately, we do not live in an entirely free or civilised society, and more often that not, what we see is only what others, with certain agendas would like us to see. For instance, as you have said, why do Muslims hate the west when we help them so much. You are correct that we do appear to help them, in terms of trying to sort out the problems in the middle east, and giving aid in times of natural disasters. But again, things are not always as they seem. If we remember what happened in the eighties, especially with Ethiopia, where so many were starving and we gave very generously to them, and people were very proud of what we had achieved. But look now and we see that the African nations are still repaying back just the interest of what they owe. They have already paid back the original loans more than 4 times over! And the amount they are paying in interest alone about 5 times more than they spend on health and welfare in their country. You can see how in fact, the generous loans are now still being used to fatten our (and by 'our' I mean the corporate elites, and not the common people like you or me) pockets with no regard for what destruction they are causing to other people in the world.

It's no different with the recent natural disasters. And if you look at what our governments in the 60's did to Indonesia, we can see why there is so much hate for the west there. Back in the 60's Indonesia was seen as the jewel of the far east. It had the most resources, including gold, copper, bauxite, etc. The government of Indonesia had rejected the Western government's approaches for loans and for western help, because they had seen what it did to other countries in the world (i.e. mess them up financially and make them hugely indebted). But our governments did not like to take no for an answer and actually overthrew the original government (headed by a chap called sukarno) and replaced him with a not so nice guy called Suharto. As soon as Suharto came into power he immediately called a meeting with major corporations from our countries and systematically divided up the whole of the countries resources to each of our governments. So some of us were in control of the copper, others got the bauxite, etc. And for 30 years, Suharto ruled with an iron fist. He killed, again with western backing, over 1 million people. And NO ONE in the west would report it. Instead, Suharto was lauded by many in the west as being the model of rulers. Some even though he should receive a Nobel prize!! But then in the 90's when he started acting independently of the west, suddenly they discovered what a brute he was, and suddenly we started hearing about the million people he had murdered. By that time however, Indonesia’s economy had hit rock bottom. Even prior to the tsunami Indonesia was the most indebted county in the world.

The above is one example. The same is true also of other countries such as Iran, and Iraq. The parallels of saddam and suharto are very similar in fact. Both were installed by us and were our friends when they agreed to play by our economic terms (and their many atrocities, which they carried out with our help and blessings, were hidden), but as soon as they showed some independence, they suddenly became monsters and their atrocities suddenly came to light. Same with the Taliban. We actually helped the taliban gain power and take over kabul in 1996, because they promised they would help build an oil pipe from Tajikistan to Pakistan. No one cared about they treatment of women then. When they suddenly refused to do so, they became our enemies. And then they were monsters.

This is happening all over the world. That it seems to be mainly muslim countries is probably a coincidence. But the frustration that these people feel is entirely understandable. Many have had their entire livlihoods destroyed by us, their families massacred, their children left as orphans. Just imagine what we would do if that happened to us. Most of us go into fits of rage when someone cuts us up on the road. What would happen if our entire lives were destroyed?

Now that does not mean they it is right to kill innocent people. Absolutely not, as they had nothing to do with it. Understand that most people in the developing nations (not just muslims) do not hate the average american joe or the british Tim. But you cannot blame them for hating our governments. In truth, we ourselves are victims of our governments (although not in the same was as the people of other countries). They feed us crap about us being the most moral in the world, and the beacon of democracy and the champions of truth and justice, when in fact our countries have perpetrated some of the worst crimes against humanity imaginable. But we rarely hear about that. Only what THEY do to US. When we do it, its called morality. When they do it, its called terrorism.

I hope that this has shed some light as to why it is we (as in our governments) are hated by many muslims. Of course, these are just small examples. There is so much more that we have done. If you want to know more, read the excellent little book called "Media control: the spectacular achievements of propaganda", by Noam Chomsky. It is small but very well written. It will change the way you see our governments and their policies.

I don't blame anyone for feeling aggrieved at Muslims. It is also difficult not to for many of us who have some insight to the blatant lies and propaganda that emanates from our governments. The bottom line is that most (and I mean 99.999999999999%) Muslims are not crazy and hell bent on killing us all. They are just normal people with normal hopes and expectations of life. But we can't keep expecting them to take abuse and not get upset. It's like what a black man once said during the apartheid in South Africa. He said something along the lines of, "the white man, he doesn't just oppress us, he also tells us how we should react to being oppressed".

Some of what you say (being a lot) i understand and agree, but not on the ""99.9999999 Muslims are not crazy and hell bent on killing us all""
i see millions yes millions that want israel wiped of the map or the us to be destroyed.
i watch many news channels and i see muslims from all over the world in many countries with the same idea
if it was 0.00000001% there woundnt be a problem .
I dont hate arabs on a whole, ive lived with them for 2 years i have moslim friends as well, the main problem is they get brain washed by the 2 or 3 bad ones and they go with the flow.

How many do you see come out and say" jews are cool the us is ok just move on get over it" . 1 or 2 ?
or how many muslim leaders come out and say peace, calm, immmm

israel and the us have had nukes for a long time without using them Even when they were attacked, do you really think if the arabs or muslims had the nukes instead of the us there would be peace,
especially if they were attacked.?

I think your bias towards israel realy shows.

I think you should look into the history of your country and see who really is the oppressor and who is the oppressed. Every zionist claims that the palestinians are the oppressors. And this is the image that most people have (again, an effect of the media representation). If you ask anyone who they believe is the aggressor, most in the west will say Palestine. (in fact there has been a study carried out, by Greg Philo and Mike Berry of the Glasgow University Media group showing just this. This is a good study, you should read it)

The reason for this is not because it is the truth, which it certainly isn't. Yes, many do advocated the use of suicide bombings, but really, what can they do? They don't have the US and UK supplied tanks and gunships in their possession that Israel does. You think if they did they would use suicide bombers? The palestinians have had their land forcefully taken from them for over 80 years. They don't care about the balfour declaration or any other so-called international legal rulings. Just because some bureaucrats thought it was fair that a group of innocent people suffer for the atrocities committed by europeans doesn't make it ok for them. They are the ones who have suffered for the last 80 years. And yes, we know that the jews were oppressed by the nazis. But now the oppressed have become the oppressors.

I don't think people in the UK or the US would very much like it if their country was split in half by the UN and all the most developed and most fertile areas in the land were given to the kurds and chechens. These people have also been oppressed. But if this were to happen, then I don't think the people in the uk or us would just sit there and go, "yeah, sure take half our country. I understand, you guys have been oppressed by the Turks, Iraqis, and the Russians for years. We don't mind." And if the kurds were being armed by the UN and were protected by them, then I think we would probably see a lot of bombings going on too by the ‘natives’.

The crux is that Israel was created as a wish of the Zionists, plus their backers, with no due regard for the people they were displacing. As such, even though it may legally be a country, understandably in the minds of the palestinians, it isn't. It should never have existed. And the people who are paying are the poor innocent palestinians. Every single family in palestine has been affected. Every one has lost a loved one, their homes and lives have been pretty much destroyed. And you expect them to sit there are say that "yeah, its cool that out country has been taken over. We don't mind."

In fact for most of its existence, Israel has actually wanted the whole destruction of Palestine. They did not, until very recently recognise the right of the palestinian state to exist. Many world atlases and maps in the west never recognised palestine as a country. And not just that, Israel carried out many incursions into lebanon, completely unprovoked. The occupied lebanon and killed thousands of innocents lebanese for many years. But who cared? NO ONE. Because it didn't suit the US and UK to report these atrocities in the west. It didn't look good that such a repressive country was one of our allies, the so called key to democracy in the middle east.

It is only now, when the majority of the world has begun to realise who really is the oppressor and who is the oppressed that suddenly Israeli policy begins to recognise that right of palestine to exist. In most of the population in Israel hated Sharon for agreeing to withdraw recently. Realising that they were losing the favour of the western countries, Isreali didn't want to lose all the pie. this was the only reason why now, suddenly, after years and years, they want a two state solution.

And their propaganda machine is at it again and again, attacking as terrorist and extremist anyone who doesn't want a two state solution. Forgetting that for the majority of the 80 years they also fell into that pot.

Israel has committed some of the worst atrocities in the 2nd half of the last century. And when the palestinians try to retaliate, it is seen as terrorism.

It really is a wonder of modern propaganda that a situation and state so vehemently wrong and immoral as Israel not only is allowed to continue its repressive and oppressive campaigns against the palestinians, but that such actions are actually seen as being correct by the majorty of the west. But thankfully, things are changing. People are becoming more educated about what is happening in the middle east. And every unbiased source is beginning to see the truth of the situation. It’s amazing, that there is so much news about Israel and Palestine, but never (and I mean never) have the news programmes explored the historical basis of these conflicts. Those people who do venture through history start to see the huge discrepancy between what we see on TV, and what actually happened.

I know you love your country. Who wouldn't. But if you expect others to be fair to you, then at least be fair to others. Its that simple. But Currently most zionists parade on a plate of propaganda and misinformation and emotional blackmail to champion the cause of Israel. As long as this continues, there will always be conflict.

But remember, no matter how much you try, truth and justice always prevails.

Remember your greeting. Shalom. It takes two to tango. And it takes both sides to make peace.

jgreene: excellent posts!

I am convinced that many of the protesters don't really know what they are protesting against. Calling Denmark a racist country is a proof of not knowing alot about Denmark. Last week there were even protests against France. There is not one country that has more connections with Arab countries than France.

The problem is that fundamentalist imams pick up these cartoons and use it as a tool to mobilize the masses, for their own agenda. That agenda has nothing to do with the cartoons, but with interior, domestic politics. in Pakistan, Saoedi Arabia and Jordan the protests are led by opposition groups, in countries in which the government is an ally of the West. By depicting the West as anti-Islam, they want to show that their own government picks the wrong allies, and is thus anti-Islam. Syria is also a nice example.

This whole issue is totally blown out of proportion, due to desinformation. The protests have been initiated by radical imams from......Denmark. They sent the cartoons to fellow fundamentalists in the Middle East. And not only the cartoons. For instance, they also sent a picture of a guy dressed like a pig (really), saying that he was making fun with Islam. Today, the newspapers report that in reality, it was a man dressed up for some kind of contest, whereby he wanted to imitate a pig (I kid you not :Oo: ). In other words, deliberate desinformation.

Don't look at this as some kind of clash of civilizations. It is a disgusting abuse by some radical imams, desinforming the people for their own political agenda.

jgreene

jgreene NO offence but what a lot of bullshit !!
You have no idea what your talking about.You need to go back more than 60-80 years.

""""I think you should look into the history of your country """"

First its not my country im a new zealander and im not even jewish...
second I know the history of ISRAEL, I mean this is so stupid. what people do you know that are in this world and dont have there own country..
Israel belongs to the israelis. ever heard of king david abraham or mosses. I can only go back as far as there is writen text about the world eg the bible is a good one, not as a religous book but as a historic one.. ok
the jews had israel King David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel 3,000 years ago before that It was ruled by Melchizedec in the time of Abraham 4000 years ago. and the abrabs have been fighting for it back and forth untill the romans invaded and the jews fled(that or die)

"""The palestinians have had their land forcefully taken from them for over 80 years""" BS
the jews had it taken from them thousands of years ago. It was just given back to them 60 years ago (1948)

"""Israel has committed some of the worst atrocities in the 2nd half of the last century. And when the palestinians try to retaliate, it is seen as terrorism."""
O really, you sound like a brainwashed arab!Where are you from? ....what about sadam what about 9/11 what about
russia what about china japan etc etc..."the worst" give me a break. AND anyone that blows up babys and women or kids for what ever reason is a dam terrorist. :rant:

whos country belongs to who?
maybe the us belongs to the indians
maybe new zealand belongs to the maoris
or australia the aboriginal natives ETC ETC
i mean who owns what? maybe nobody cause it was all taken by war.

like you say """if you expect others to be fair to you, then at least be fair to others"""

If the arabs dont like it so much why dont they give them sinai or part of there own countries i mean the arabs have huge amounts of land, unused even. israel is so small it takes me 1 hour to drive west to the east border of jordan.
for crying out load .

Israel belongs to the jews

THE END

jgreene

I think your bias towards the palestinians realy shows.!!!!

I dont think everything that Israel does is right, but blown them up doesnt help either.
isnt that what ben laden did ? "what can they do" you say, well voting for a terrorist government doesnt help.
The other government there were making grounds especially after arafat died.

you were right about "has the news programmes explored the historical basis of these conflicts"
no if they did they would find out it does belong to the jews like Private Magot said.

If you get so angry about a post, then you can't really blame people for getting angry when their whole lives are destroyed. And anger makes people's visions distorted and makes them do things they normally wouldn't. I am not for suicide bombing. I think it is atrocious. But I can fully understand the anger that resides in those people who do it. And if Palestinians killing babies and women and children is wrong, then it is also wrong if it is done by Israelis in tanks and with rifles.

You can claim that Israel belongs to the jews because it says so in the bible. Well that's shaky ground to say the least. Then every Muslim can say that they have claim to every single nation in the world as the world was created by Allah according to the Quran. And then the Hindus can say, actually the world was given to Krishna. And so on. And then we'll see where the world end up...

I understand you frustration. This is a difficult situation. But getting angry does not help.

The issue isn't about arabs giving land to the israelis. If they wanted to, they could. In fact, if the original plan had been to allow the jewish people to reside in their lands (without taking it over) and pray and do whatever they liked with full freedom then I am sure we would not be in the mess we are in now. In fact, if you do look through history, when the european christians were oppressing the jews it was the muslims and the arabs who took them in and gave them the same rights. Something many zionists seem to overlook nowadays.

But what actually happened was the the zionist movement, with the help of some powerful british and US allies FORCED their way into palestine. The zionists wanted to establish Israel with jerusalem. Sinai or another part of the arab world would never do. Actually during that time most of the jews in europe didn't want to go to israel. They actually would have preferred to go to the US. But the zionist forefathers were adamant on establishing a state of Isreal (much to the consternation of many orthodox jews, who maintained that Israel would be established, but without any forced expulsion of the palestinian occupants and with god's full blessing. Such views are still prevalent within a section of the orthodox jewish community, who are very anti Zionist - most famously the Neturei Karta movement - see http://www.nkusa.org/ for more info).

I'm sorry that we cannot see eye to eye on this issue. And it is a shame. I have no links with palestine or israel. I am someone who is just sick nd tired of the lies and propaganda that we in the west are brainwashed with everyday by our governments and media. As a human being my loyalties lie only with truth and justice. And there is very little of that going on in Israel at the moment.

Joe Greene

PS I can't wait for Oblivion (the new elder scrolls game that is...)

You say """you can fully understand the anger that resides in those people who do it, suicide bombings"""
Sorry i dont ***2 wrongs dont make a right.*** It sucks but they have to get over it like my friends wife that has two kids but no dad now because he took a bus ride and got blown away.. what did he do ...nothing he was a lefty that liked arabs.

"""As a human being my loyalties lie only with truth and justice. And there is very little of that going on in Israel at the moment."""
More so in the arab and muslim countries. Iran wants israel off the map, Irak and many others wanted to destroy it.

Israel has the right to there own country.
If the palestinians want one take sinai or some of the arab land surrounding them, its a start to a better life than they have now.
.O wait the other arabs dont want them, lol. like jordan that killed thousands, o but you forgot about that atrocities didnt you
why dont the orther countries give them a little land?? They have so much.

Interesting when arabs kill other arabs and nothing happens about it, or theres not much reaction from other arab countries, i wonder if it even gets on the news!!
1 Time a arab named sadam ended up a hero to his people...immmmm
how many did he kill, and of his own. :bucky!:

Must be more to this story that meets the eye.